Thursday 14 June 2012

The controversy

The recent arguments on Tango UK about classes have been a source of entertainment to many of us. This blog was mentioned in flattering terms, but the reference might have suggested that I agree with the views of one of the participants, which I don't. I thought of replying, but Tango UK is intended as a listing and it's been a bit swamped with controversy recently.
I don't agree that classes are evil, futile and a waste of money. Not all classes, anyway. Some no doubt are useless and misleading, and it's obviously a problem for beginners, who have to come to grips with a new kind of social dancing, unfamiliar music, and a layer of hype, as well as the misinformation from TV dancing series. But just because some of the best social dancers of Buenos Aires, born some seventy and more years ago, never attended classes, isn't quite proof that therefore we should avoid classes. From an early age they were passionate about the music and the dance, they grew up in a tango environment and they've also had a lifetime of dance, which no doubt explains their dancing, rather than the fact that they never went to formal classes. 
I realised early on that being taught 'figures' and learning to dance weren't quite the same thing, although figures can be a starting point for learning to dance, but no more than a starting point. I went to every class available, simply because there was always something useful there: in fact that is how I came across a class with Ricardo Vidort, which gave me an idea of the tango of Buenos Aires, and that's what I followed. With tango classes as with anything else it's 'caveat emptor'. There are people out there who will take your money in return for something that looks good on the surface, but isn't much use in social dance. & there are people who'll inspire you with the warmth and openness of tango and the tango culture, too.
I found pre-milonga classes useful when I was less certain of myself at milongas, not so much for what was taught but because that was where I could find out who I might approach for a dance – and who I knew I should avoid. There are classes before many of the traditional milongas in Buenos Aires too, and they are also a good opportunity to find who might look in your direction when the dancing starts. The classes there are more likely to be attuned to the social dance of the milongas: they'll probably begin with simple walking and warm-up exercises, and give plenty of time to actual dancing. A simple figure will be taught, often with possible variations, so it's less like a rigid choreography. These sessions are more like relaxed practicas than high-powered choreography classes: low-key and enjoyable, they are a good beginning to an evening, especially if you're a visitor. Hopefully classes like these will become more common and popular in the UK.
For me, one valuable thing came out of the debate: Andrew RYSER SZYMAÑSKI's recollections. 'I remember when Susanna Miller & Cacho Dante came to London [1995?] they caused a furore, ostensibly because they danced so close. They gave a few classes, not a lot compared to the numbers now being peddled by a plethora of gurus, local & imported - but they changed, in a few weeks, the way tango was danced in the UK. Susanna was no step-merchant, and I can safely say that in one general class with her I learned more than in 20 with Gavito. Actually she was a newcomer to tango at the time, but she had the knack of picking Cacho's brains for all he knew as a seasoned milonguero.' 
Wish we could get Cacho back to London! 

PS: ...and, yes, a lot of good sense was talked on all sides, too. There was probably a lot more agreement than was apparent from the war of words, as so often happens!

44 comments:

Chris said...

"I thought of replying, but Tango UK is intended as a listing"

You're mistaken, TC. Tango-UK is intended for both adverts and discussion.

Anonymous said...

What London classes do you recommend.

Janis said...

A class before a traditional milonga in BsAs is for one purpose: to rent the space. It doesn't help the milonga in any way. Those who teach those classes present choreography and then leave promptly after their classes.

Cacho Dante is once again advertising his classes in a tango magazine La Milonga Argentina. They are Tuesday and Thursday from 20-22hrs., Pedro Goyena 1382. Telephone 4433 3936 cell: 15-3063-2235 email cachodante@yahoo.com.ar

The milongueros viejos learned tango as teenagers when they had time on their hands and the desire to improve. They had years of practice with family members before going to a downtown confiteria where you had to know how to dance.

Today things are different. Adults are fascinated with the music and dance. They don't have time on their hands to dedicate to learning the dance, so they take years of classes. This has made tango classes into a good business for many Argentines who talk the talk and look the part. Caveat emptor applies.

Things will continue as usual until adults get what they need: social tango skills, not stage choreography.

Janis said...

@Anonymous

I heard through the tango grapevine that El Flaco Dany will be in London, July 13-17 for classes and exhibitions. You can find his videos on YouTube, the best one is with Muma. He is the Fred Astaire of milonga, but his schedule includes tango. El Flaco Dany is a true milonguero. Don't miss the opportunity to see him.

It's too bad that he will be there for only a few days. It's a rare opportunity for London to host a milonguero.

Anonymous said...

How many classes did you have to learn to walk? As a child I mean? And how many to nod your head to the music and tap your feet? And how many to hold a woman, to make love?

None?

Chris said...

Spot on, Anonymous. Plus the surest way to make a natural activity so hard as to be unlearnable outside classes, is to try to learn it in classes.

When it comes to dancing, the problem hereabouts isn't that what's easy for some is hard for others. The problem isn't even that those for whom it's hard really believe by teaching it in classes they are making it easier for others. The problem is that through classes those teachers are actually making it as hard for so many others as it is for themselves.

A big difference in Argentina (and increasingly in mainland Europe) is that more newcomers start by dancing with someone who can dance, so if they're cut out for it, they find out early. If they're not, they don't waste their time trying to learn. And don't waste others' time by trying to teach.

As the UK gets a few more people who can really dance, this is happening more here too. Many more newcomers will find they have the simple natural ability from which it all starts.

Classes will remain - to provide the quntessentially British dance that it's teachers hereabouts call Argentine tango.

Janis said...

Movement to music is natural for every human being. It should be something all children do, not just girls. Then when they are adults they don't have to feel awkward about something which is so natural. As Anonymous points out, we learned to walk without classes.

Today, tango is taught as a dance for exhibition/performance, not a social one to enjoy.

Tangocommuter said...

Anon 1: I can't speak from recent experience so I don't know what's on offer in London, and you don't say how much experience you have, but I believe that the classes (the regular classes, not the pre-milonga classes) at Carablanca are geared towards social dance. I hope there are others. I'd suggest trying everything and settling where you feel at home. & if you start to feel you're not at home there, search again.

Janis, I'm not at all sure which pre-milonga classes you have experience of: perhaps you should let us know which ones you're so dismissive about, so we can be warned. I can talk only about my personal experience of classes at El Beso, Plaza Bohemia, Canning and Porteno y Bailarin. As I wrote above, these are oriented towards social dancing, and avoid rigid choreography. As you've probably noticed in your social dancing there are certain patterns that recurr: these are the kind of things that are practiced in all the pre-milonga classes I have been to. & yes, as I said, both the teachers and the learners stay on and enjoy the milonga. (Perhaps I should call these sessions 'practicas', because that's what they are, and because there are people who generalise that classes are 'bad' and practicas are 'good'!) After which classes do the teachers leave promptly?

As you say, we come to tango these days in completely different circumstances to the situation of the social dancers who grew up in the 1940s and earlier, and we can't assume that what applied in 1940 is automatically useful today. & you might be surprised that outside Buenos Aires people actually spend much more time dancing than taking lessons! & tango is also taught as a social dance: Cacho Dante, among others, does it, very successfully. It's wonderful news that he is teaching again: he's really an inspiration, and I hope we get him back to London at some stage. Thanks for the details of his classes. 'El Flaco' Dany's programme for London is here. Lots of classes and workshops packed into a few days.

I've found it very noticeable that nothing excites more argument, and antagonism, too, than discussion about the teaching of tango. Interesting.

Anon 2: nice rhetoric. But if you walk in a milonga as you walk in the streets, if your idea of dancing is limited to keeping the beat, if your embrace in dancing in any way resembles that of making love, then I suspect you'll have some difficulty in milongas. & perhaps it should be pointed out that over 50% of people at milongas do not even walk forwards: most of the time they step backwards, which isn't normal in any streets I'm familiar with.

Chris, you generalise a lot, and, like Janis, you're never specific about which events you're criticising. Perhaps you have no experience of classes that help people to dance socially, so you say there are none. Actually, they aren't uncommon in Buenos Aires, and they exist in London too, although perhaps less effectively organised. Yes, I think I'd agree with you: initial learning to dance with someone who can dance proficiently is the best way, and the kind of 'classes' I enjoy are those that are in effect 'practicas', where there is a guided meeting of dancers of different levels. This is something in general lacking in the UK, and as I said above I think there's a big need for it. It's useful for dancers to mix with each other and benefit from each other's experience. After all, that's social dancing, isn't it?

Anonymous said...

I only hope I am never on the receiving end of someone who makes love by sequences and from classes... !

Random Tango Bloke said...

Well the tradition of learning tango in Buenos Aires may not have formal dance classes in a dance studio/pre -milonga but I suspect that has more to do with the opportunities readily available to learn from friends and family – an opportunity that dancers in the UK do not generally have.

This so called ideal model of beginner dancers learning from experienced dancers is quite frankly unrealistic in London and I suspect most of the UK.

Sure I suspect that there might be quite a few guys willing to “teach” new young attractive female dancers with the possibility of “reward” (*wink*) for their time and effort. But where does that leave the more mature and or less physically attractive ladies? These ladies who far too often sit out at Milongas due to the fact that their male counterparts are usually too busy chasing the young and attractive girls are unlikely to have queues of experienced dancers selflessly willing to spend their limited social time – not enjoying themselves dancing with good dancers but waiting to teach complete beginners how to dance tango!

There may well be a few experienced ladies willing to teach beginner guys – though my own experiences suggest that there would be even fewer opportunities for beginner guys to get an experienced lady to teach them. Most of the time complete beginner guys have enough problems securing 3 dances! So where are the men going to learn?

Furthermore in my experience many of the dancers that are often willing to offer their “help” to beginners are often not the type of dancers you want to learn from. They seem to be all too willing to spend time lecturing beginners because no one else wants to dance with them!

Then there is the question of where this learning will take place? If not on the Milonga dance floor then space would have to be organised and paid for.

AlanJonesj said...

I wonder where the beginners will end up, without learning from the more experienced...Alan Jones from Southampton.

Game Cat said...

I'm compelled to write this in case a curious male beginner is reading this.

Don't panic.

There are good classes, there are bad classes. There are good partners, there are bad partners. Be prepared for fear and failure.

Take responsibility for your own learning. Listen to others as well as your instincts, but always make up your own mind.

Be polite and respectful of others, even if they are not to you. They will regret it one day as everyone watches in the milonga.

....and YES it can be worth it.

Tangocommuter said...

Thanks to Random Tango Bloke, Alan and Game Cat for all the good sense.

I entirely agree that tango isn't a specialised skill set, unless you want to be a performer rather than a social dancer. At the same time, it takes learning. For a start, we don't all walk well: many of us hammer our heels into the ground when we walk, whereas in tango I'm told we need to be much more on the balls of the feet, the weight further forwards. It would be great to have grown up in a tango family, as the older generation did, and as a few children are growing up today in the UK. We'd take all these things for granted. But for the rest of us, we have to look around to find how best we can develop some fluency in moving to that wonderful music.

Chris said...

"Chris, you generalise a lot, "

There are lots of valid generalisations to be made.

"and, like Janis, you're never specific about which events you're criticising."

One reason is that I respect your ruling that "derogatory remarks about other people definitely aren't acceptable".

Though why the lack of specificity around here from those recommending classes, I don't know. One often sees here the likes of:

There are experienced teachers in London who
teach exactly these things and who dance only
socially and who produce good results.


written by people who never identify the teachers... or even themselves.

Another reason I'm rarely specific is that I'm not criticising any specific classes. I am criticising the class model that's standard across the UK. The one that partners people who can't dance together and drills them in moves copied from people who can. This is trying to start a fire by rubbing two sticks in the light of a distant flame. Criticism of a specific rubber's technique has very little value.

Random Tango Bloke, you ask good questions. I recommend a visit to Berlin, a tango scene that fifteen years ago was at a stage similar to London now, is now proportionally five times the size of London, and is 99% free of the kind of cheat teachers Cacho spoke of in the interview TC recently posted. There's no better place to get your answers. And to see how people learn by stepping in to the fire.

Random Tango Bloke said...

Chris

I have danced in most of the milongas in Berlin and have good and bad views on the scene there. I have danced with lots of Germans and generally rate them very highly. Though I have to say my favourite ones do not come from Berlin – and many do not like the Berlin scene. But that is a discussion for another thread/forum as it a different subject.

I will agree with you that there are excellent teachers available in Berlin that I love taking lessons with and they are considerably cheaper than any of the teachers in London (none of whom I would want take private lessons with). I can only dream how good my dancing might become if just one of those teachers was in London and I could take regular lessons with them.

BUT the availability of good teachers is a very different situation to the one you initially spoke of – where there is peer to peer learning. When I asked good dancers in Berlin (and believe me I did many times – both male and female) where they learned – they all told me about classes or teachers. None spoke of learning by watching/experienced peer learning or just jumping in at the deep end.

Tangocommuter said...

I've heard varying reports of Berlin tango, but I have no direct experience of it. & the only advice on learning I received in Buenos Aires was the direction to classes. But tell me: if you meet a good dancer and he/she agrees to help you, that's useful, right? But what if you pay? Doesn't it then become a 'class'...;)

& where does this idea that tango is a 'natural activity' come from? Even the older generation learned and worked on their dance, and they love to tell stories about it. The walk is acquired, not natural. Cacho takes great pains with the walk: his classes feature an exercise to improve it. He watches like a hawk to see that you get it right: he'll note if you turn your feet out as you walk, which is likely to confuse your partner into thinking you are turning... and so on. As taught by Cacho, the tango walk is different in a number of ways from the way we walk in the streets, which could be called 'natural'. & anyway, that 'natural' walk differs from individual to individual: there is no one 'natural walk'. Cacho's classes last two hours and are hard work, but I hope you won't suggest he's making an effort to confuse, and make tango more difficult to learn!

Tango would have been the earliest memories of many of the older generation in Buenos Aires; they would have watched parents and family dancing, and would have been joining in and imitating from early on, so, yes, it was natural to them, but only because it had been acquired at an impressionable age. (Of course I'm aware 'natural' has different meanings: apologies if I'm mistaking the intended meaning.)

My experience is that there are classes that are helpful, but I'm not sure that they are so well developed in London. I've watched or taken part in classes by Beto Ortiz and Marek Szotkowski in London, and by Andreas Wichter in Devon, who are all conscious of the needs of social dancing, and are doing their best to help people to practice and enjoy it. But I think the best class formats are those I've experienced in Buenos Aires: longer classes, with more social dancing.

Game Cat said...

Barring a few, I think most here would agree that classes CAN produce good dancers. Is not the question why are there bad classes at all in the UK (or any given country)?

Perhaps, ironically, it is poor dancing in milongas that can encourage bad classes.

A milonga is not a place to teach, but it is still a place to learn. An observant beginner can understand a lot more by watching good dancing. He can realise that floor craft is important, simple dancing can be musically expressive, etiquette is appreciated, and even boleos have their time and place. He will also realise that good dancers mainly just want to dance, and that teaching on the floor makes you look like a plonker.

If he is really serious, he will bear these things in mind when he looks for teachers. The more beginners like him there are, the more demand there will be for good teachers.

So ask yourself the next time you step into your regular milonga - through the eyes of a beginner, what do you see? What will he/ she learn by looking at the people on the floor (including you)?

Anonymous said...

Game Cat - agree completely. a good environment may be one of the best `classes` for developing your dance.

and that`s were the main difference is imo, outside BA, good milongas are rare, neither are there many dancers who are interesting to watch and who could serve as role models.

matias

Cinderella said...

Interesting discussion, TC, though I actually think tango should be more about enjoying and trying to get closer than about battling (with words or with whatever). But perhaps that is exactly what you are all trying to achieve.

TC said: "& you might be surprised that outside Buenos Aires people actually spend much more time dancing than taking lessons!"

True. As I said in another discussion, I hate it when BsAs expats think they know it all.

TC also said: "if your embrace in dancing in any way resembles that of making love, then I suspect you'll have some difficulty in milongas"

I don't agree with you on that. My best dances actually felt a lot like making love. ;)

"A milonga is not a place to teach, but it is still a place to learn."

Absolutely agreed, Game Cat! That's what makes it a social dance. I don't want to criticize teachers in general, but I must say that I learned loads more in the milongas (through dancing and watching) than in the classes I took...

"outside BA, good milongas are rare, neither are there many dancers who are interesting to watch and who could serve as role models."

Untrue, Anonymous. There are good milongas outside BsAs as well as bad milongas in BsAs.

Tangocommuter said...

Thanks, Cinderella! But when I mentioned the embrace that 'resembles making love' I meant a visual resemblance. Whatever it feels like, I think the tango embrace is a formal structure that needs to be maintained carefully!

Anonymous said...

Time and again I see people ignore a simple thing in these discussions. _People are different_

The way that Bob and Mary feel comfortable in the embrace in no way has to be the same way that Saracen and Valeria do.

London is awful, oh me, oh my. Teachers are conning their students. If only we lived in BsAs a hundred years ago....

And yet somehow people all over the world go to milongas every day and have a good time.

Why on earth should someone born and raised in the south of england connect with someone in the same way as someone from Berlin, BsAs or wherever?

I remember being on a tube in London and an american remarking loudly to an Italian how weird it was that no-one talks on the tubes in London.

Let people be comfortable in what they're doing. And don't force them to conform to whatever _your_ idea of that is. If two people want to dance with the same feeling, whether that's discussing the weather or making love, then good luck to them.

Yes, there needs to be a baseline of "playing nice". And yes there are students who are looking for something specific who get mislead by teachers, or it simply isn't available where they are. But from what I've seen they'll tend to just keep looking till they find it and good luck to them too!

Near as I can tell, the fundamental strength of the milongueros is they found whatever their way to connect with people in the embrace and through tango was and got very good at it.

Chris said...

Random Tango Bloke wrote:
"When I asked good dancers in Berlin ... where they learned – they all told me about classes or teachers."

Since that's the selection of a (as you say) lesson lover, no real surprise, is it?

My recommendation of Berlin was more for dance lovers than lesson lovers.

The Berlin dancers I most like that learned from teachers did so through dancing with them in one-to-one sessions. Such learning is much more common than in London.

The best Berlin class-taught dancers I've found are those who did as few as were needed before graduating to practicas and/or milonga. Classes figure very little in the Berlin tango scene. E.g. whereas in London all milongas have one or two classes beforehand, no Berlin milonga I know has any. Many have practicas.

In an open practica, you can learn by dancing from anyone you choose, paid or not. Whether you call that person a teacher matters very little. Whether they call themselves a teacher matters even less. What counts is whether they can really dance.

"in my experience many of the dancers that are often willing to offer their “help” to beginners are often not the type of dancers you want to learn from. They seem to be all too willing to spend time lecturing beginners because no one else wants to dance with them!"

Agreed. And the reason we have so many bad dancers lecturing beginners is that we have so many people spending hours in classes copying bad dancers lecturing beginners.

Like begets like.

Chris said...

Anonymous wrote:

"Why on earth should someone born and raised in the south of england connect with someone in the same way as someone from Berlin, BsAs or wherever?"

Ineed. They can connect any different way they like, and can insist it's the way everyone else calls dancing Argentine tango. It's a free country! :)

Tangocommuter said...

Chris, 'Many [Berlin milongas] have practicas.'

You're suggesting the practicas are pre-milonga. If you don't mind, could you list them? Thanks.

Chris said...

http://berlin.tango.info/practicas

Tangocommuter said...

Thanks for the link to the impressive link of Berlin practicas, Chris. But you were talking about pre-milonga practicas, and that's what I was asking about. Which are they?

Random Tango Bloke said...

Chris

“Since that's the selection of a (as you say) lesson lover, no real surprise, is it?”

As I already stated - the only selection I made was to ask to ask those who I thought/felt were good dancers! ......I had made no assumption as to how they had learnt so therefore there could be no surprises. I was asking them for my own enlightenment and learning not to prove a point. The reality is that they spoke of getting lessons from teachers (Ismael ludman / Ines / Daniela etc).

I suspect that you are right in saying that private lessons are more common there – although I do not really know how many people take them in London. As I already stated whilst I do not take privates in London – I would have regular ones in Berlin as I consider the teachers are better and unquestionably more reasonably priced.
----------------------------------
“In an open practica, you can learn by dancing from anyone you choose, paid or not. Whether you call that person a teacher matters very little. Whether they call themselves a teacher matters even less. What counts is whether they can really dance.”
I love practicas and I agree that it is the best environment to learn IF you can access the right people to work with. The problem is that not everyone can. Often experienced dancers will ” bring their own” to make it worthwhile for them to attend. Yes experienced male dancers will gravitate towards the young attractive female beginners but what about other groups such as male beginners and older unattractive followers? And don’t get me started on the bad dancers who nobody wants to touch- how are they supposed to improve?

I agree with much on what you say about the standard/way/material of teaching in London. I just don’t think you are suggesting a viable alternative when you promote the idea of peer to peer learning

Chris said...

TC, there have been pre-milonga practicas at Ballhaus Rixdorf, Haus der Sinne, Tango tanzen macht schoen, Mala Junta, Art 13, Max und Moritz, Villa Kreuzberg, TSV Gutsmuth, NOU, Walzerlinksgestrickt and perhaps more I don't know of. Claerchen's Ballhaus has also held what they call a practica but it looked to me more like a class.

Chris said...

Random Tango Bloke wrote:

"As I already stated - the only selection I made was to ask to ask those who I thought/felt were good dancers!"

Sure. My point was that whom one thinks/feels to be a good dancer is largely personal preference, and lessongoers have a relatively higher preference for lessongoers. This is not a criticism.

"I do not take privates in London – I would have regular ones in Berlin as I consider the teachers are better and unquestionably more reasonably priced."

I do too.

"the bad dancers who nobody wants to touch - how are they supposed to improve?"

I have to say I see nothing to suggest "bad dancers who nobody wants to touch" are supposed to improve. What they're supposed to do is stay in classes where forced partnering ensures they'll get dances regardless.

"I agree with much on what you say about the standard/way/material of teaching in London. I just don’t think you are suggesting a viable alternative when you promote the idea of peer to peer learning "

By peer-to-peer you mean beginners with beginners, intermediate with intermediate etc.?? That's the standard UK class system and the opposite of what I'm promoting. What I am promoting is the traditional way proven ny the Argentines over the last 100 years - people who can't yet dance learn by dancing with people who can.

Random Tango Bloke said...

Chris

“Sure. My point was that whom one thinks/feels to be a good dancer is largely personal preference”

Agreed.

“and lessongoers have a relatively higher preference for lessongoers. This is not a criticism.”

None taken. You do not know me or how I dance. Besides don’t worry – I’m here for an open discussion.

However I do not know how to respond to that. Firstly what evidence do you have to support this? And secondly ....actually don’t worry – it works as a bold/ controversial statement but I am not sure there is enough relevance to the topic to merit examination.


“By peer-to-peer you mean beginners with beginners, intermediate with intermediate etc.??”


By peer to peer learning I was referring to individuals learning from each other rather than directly from a teacher. This could be with individuals at the same level or stronger helping weaker etc. Though I agree with you that experienced dancers working with less experienced dancers would be the favoured scenario.

“What I am promoting is the traditional way proven ny the Argentines over the last 100 years - people who can't yet dance learn by dancing with people who can.”


Yes the Argentine model would seem to work/have worked very well for them. At the risk of repeating myself I just do not think it can work here.

I was hoping to avoid what I am going to say next because I like a lot of what you say and the way you say it.I also think that there is a lot of truth in your assessment of some of the main players on the Londo scene. I do not wish to get personal or in a battle with you. However it is the best way to illustrate my point.

The problem Chris is that whilst you are very vociferous on your view you do not actually PROMOTE it. I have seen you at numerous milongas. You bring a partner and seem to very rarely dance with other followers. On the few occasions that I have seen you dance with other followers – they have certainly not been inexperienced dancers.

It is not a criticism – you are entitled to dance with whoever you want. But if you yourself are not willing to dance with the beginners – then who is supposed to do it?


And that I believe is the biggest flaw in your argument

Chris said...

Random Tango Bloke wrote:
" "lessongoers have a relatively higher preference for lessongoers" ... what evidence do you have to support this?"

My experience of the few thousand dancers I've known, on and off the floor.

"By peer to peer learning I was referring to individuals learning from each other rather than directly from a teacher."

Fine, but that's not the distinction I'm making. The distinction I'm making is between learning by dancing with someone who dances v. learning from the demonstration and instruction of someone who talks about it. You call the latter direct - I call it indirect. Direct dance learning is through dance itself, from a dancer him/herself.

"I have seen you at numerous milongas. You bring a partner and seem to very rarely dance with other followers. On the few occasions that I have seen you dance with other followers – they have certainly not been inexperienced dancers."

That's a sample strongly biased by a lessongoer's choice of milongas. (No criticism intended.) At milongas where otherwise I'd be unlikely to find anyone with whom I wanted to dance, yes I go with a partner. At milongas from which beginners have been largely eradicated by lessons that turn them into leavers or sub-beginners, yes I rarely dance with beginners.

Whereas, at any of our three Cambridge practicas you'd see every time I visit I dance with beginners - guys and girls. And at our class-free milongas. And at my favourite milongas across mainland Europe. I dance with beginners more than just about any non-beginner I know.

Random Tango Bloke said...

Chris

Thanks for your reply.

“My experience of the few thousand dancers I've known, on and off the floor.”

Well I cannot argue with your experience / opinion – that’s your truth. But being highly subjective I would not call it hard evidence. My own experience from thousands of dancers ( dancing in Argentina/ Germany/ Holland/ Italy/ Belgium/ Spain ) is that dancers prefer good dancers – and they don’t really care how they got there. But again it is only my experience and opinion and maybe I only hear what I want to hear – I certainly wouldn’t claim it as hard evidence either.

“That's a sample strongly biased by a lessongoer's choice of milongas.”

Well you were there too. They were in fact on your list of recommended milongas and we both had travelled a considerable distance to get there. So I would have thought the obvious conclusion is that we share the same taste in milongas?

As I’m not sure why you are recommending milongas / tea dances where you would be unlikely to find anyone with whom you wanted to dance – forgive me but I’m going to take that with a pinch of salt.

Oh and by the way I have also been to the Cambridge practicas.......

“At milongas from which beginners have been largely eradicated by lessons that turn them into leavers or sub-beginners, yes I rarely dance with beginners.”


Ah but if a better tango scene is wanted aren’t these the dancers that should be targeted and shown an alternative and more successful way of learning to dance?

Chris said...

Random Tango Bloke wrote:
"My own experience... is dancers prefer good dancers – and they don’t really care how they got there."

My own experience is that the typical classgoer has a significantly different idea of what constitutes good, having learned in an environment where good is defined more by a class instructors than by regular dancers. This gives classgoers an overall preference bias toward classgoers. That's natural. Just as those who learned more from regular dancers generally have a preference bias toward regular dancers.

"Well you were there too ... So I would have thought the obvious conclusion is that we share the same taste in milongas?

Except, as you've stated, you don't go to milongas at which I often dance with beginners.

"I’m not sure why you are recommending milongas / tea dances where you would be unlikely to find anyone with whom you wanted to dance"

I'm not. As you already observed, I often go with a partner - as do many others who enjoy those milongas.

"Ah but if a better tango scene is wanted aren’t these [class leavers and sub-beginners] the dancers that should be targeted and shown an alternative and more successful way of learning to dance?"

I can see why a classgoer might think that, but I share the regular dancers' preference bias towards the kind of dance learning that does not cause such problems in the first place.

In other words: if it ain't broke, don't break it.

Random Tango Bloke said...

Chris

Thanks for your reply
Ok let me get this straight.

Now you advocate a system where experienced dancers are supposed to nurture/develop the beginners and less experienced –and the beginners should avoid lessons.

I go to a lot of the milongas / practicas that you go to with your partner and were on your recommended list for tango-uk. I very very rarely see you dance with other followers and never with beginners because a) they are not the milongas where you would find people you would want to dance with b) the beginners are already tainted by having taking lessons. At the milongas that you go to when I’m not there you dance extensively with beginners.

erm..............

Chris said...

"Ok let me get this straight."

I am letting you. Not that it seems to help...

"the beginners should avoid lessons."

Classes.

Random Tango Bloke said...

Chris

“I am letting you. Not that it seems to help...”

Lol. ....No not really. I may be alone here but it seems to me that You do move the goal posts as you go along in your arguments in contradictory ways.

example : I am unaware of any previous distinction that you made between” lessons” and “classes” in the comments on this thread so far. And yet now you pull me up on using the wrong term?

Chris said...

A class is a specific kind of lesson. Another kind is individual lesson. They are very different.

Random Tango Bloke said...

Chris

Ok. I can accept that as your definition (not necessarily mine) from now on.

The problem that occurred was that you had switched between using both terms to describe the same people within this thread – thus suggesting no difference.

e.g You described me as both a lesson goer and a class goer when I had only mentioned going to privates lessons in Berlin
Other quotes included:

“At milongas from which beginners have been largely eradicated by lessons that turn them into leavers or sub-beginners, yes I rarely dance with beginners.”

"Ah but if a better tango scene is wanted aren’t these [class leavers and sub-beginners] the dancers that should be targeted and shown an alternative and more successful way of learning to dance?"

Anonymous said...

Just in the interests of clarity.

Chris are you suggesting that beginners wishign to learn "Argentine Tango" find a "good dancer" and learn from them one-to-one until they are of sufficient standard that the other "good dancers" in the community will dance with them socially. And then learn by dancing socially with the good dancers, possibly augmenting it with further lessons from good dancers?

And would you accept that, at least in London, the vast majority (say 90-95%) have absolutely no interest in going this route, and are quite happy learning something in classes which you don't consider to be Argentine Tango.

And that as this rather large group of people are what currently make milongas financially viable, as long as they're not actually causing harm to anyone, there's nothing wrong with that, particularly if they're enjoying themselve?

Tangocommuter said...

This rather large group of people who 'currently make milongas financially viable' also pays for DJs -- and Chris is one of them... (& does a good job.)

Chris said...

Random Tango Bloke
"The problem that occurred was that you had switched between using both terms to describe the same people within this thread"

I used both terms as I described. Some people do both kinds of lesson.

Though note that TC, I and the other commenters here were talking about classes... until the term "lesson" was introduced by you. If by lesson you meant class, then I apologise for misinterpreting you.

Chris said...

Anonymous, wrote:
"Chris are you suggesting ... And would you accept that... And that..."

Yes, yes and yes.

:)

For people who want to learn what those classes teach, they're fine.

But for the few who go along hoping to learn what the Argentines call dancing tango, they're not.

PS And yes I'm aware London milongas are largely financed by classgoer spending. I'm reminded each time I see a commercial break successfully passed off as a 'show'. :)

Anonymous said...

@Chris

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Food for thought. I've gone the route you're suggesting, I've recommended it to others and know other people who have used it.

I can see the value in putting the idea forward so that people who want to go that route realise it's an option and don't have to deal with classes which don't suit them / get them where they want to go.

_But_ I've read your postings on numerous blogs and forums over the years and this is the _first_ time I've actually understood what your point was.

So it's likely that with your current approach the people who could actually benefit from your idea aren't getting it either.

Two suggestions; come up with a much shorter, clearer version of it that doesn't take over a month of posts (this thread started in June!)for people to decipher (and the people doing the deciphering aren't beginners anyway!).

Two, frankly stop behaving like a troll. It's annoying and the people who might benefit switch off.

http://www.publetariat.com/think/authors-field-guide-internet-trolls

Chris said...

Anonymous, I'm happy to say that in my experience very few of those learning to dance tango are as hard of understanding as you claim to be.

Perhaps next time you don't understand something, don't leave it years before asking for an explanation.

Good luck.