tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post2795462155687714427..comments2023-10-14T15:52:29.871+01:00Comments on Tango commuter: The controversyTangocommuterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14060601718946750364noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-1179193497863317062012-07-25T02:22:18.553+01:002012-07-25T02:22:18.553+01:00Anonymous, I'm happy to say that in my experie...Anonymous, I'm happy to say that in my experience very few of those learning to dance tango are as hard of understanding as you claim to be.<br /><br />Perhaps next time you don't understand something, don't leave it years before asking for an explanation.<br /><br />Good luck.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-45165664133446397032012-07-24T23:16:21.698+01:002012-07-24T23:16:21.698+01:00@Chris
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Food...@Chris<br /><br />Thanks for clearing that up for me. <br /><br />Food for thought. I've gone the route you're suggesting, I've recommended it to others and know other people who have used it. <br /><br />I can see the value in putting the idea forward so that people who want to go that route realise it's an option and don't have to deal with classes which don't suit them / get them where they want to go.<br /><br />_But_ I've read your postings on numerous blogs and forums over the years and this is the _first_ time I've actually understood what your point was. <br /><br />So it's likely that with your current approach the people who could actually benefit from your idea aren't getting it either.<br /><br />Two suggestions; come up with a much shorter, clearer version of it that doesn't take over a month of posts (this thread started in June!)for people to decipher (and the people doing the deciphering aren't beginners anyway!).<br /><br />Two, frankly stop behaving like a troll. It's annoying and the people who might benefit switch off.<br /><br />http://www.publetariat.com/think/authors-field-guide-internet-trollsAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-27154677398742203792012-07-24T01:25:47.182+01:002012-07-24T01:25:47.182+01:00Anonymous, wrote:
"Chris are you suggesting ....Anonymous, wrote:<br />"<i>Chris are you suggesting ... And would you accept that... And that...</i>"<br /><br />Yes, yes and yes. <br /><br />:)<br /><br />For people who want to learn what those classes teach, they're fine. <br /><br />But for the few who go along hoping to learn what the Argentines call dancing tango, they're not.<br /><br />PS And yes I'm aware London milongas are largely financed by classgoer spending. I'm reminded each time I see a commercial break successfully passed off as a 'show'. :)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-75235563925865375362012-07-24T00:28:13.511+01:002012-07-24T00:28:13.511+01:00Random Tango Bloke
"The problem that occurred...Random Tango Bloke<br />"<i>The problem that occurred was that you had switched between using both terms to describe the same people within this thread</i>"<br /><br />I used both terms as I described. Some people do both kinds of lesson.<br /><br />Though note that TC, I and the other commenters here were talking about classes... until the term "lesson" was introduced by you. If by lesson you meant class, then I apologise for misinterpreting you.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-10050360554638995952012-07-23T20:18:18.129+01:002012-07-23T20:18:18.129+01:00This rather large group of people who 'current...This rather large group of people who 'currently make milongas financially viable' also pays for DJs -- and Chris is one of them... (& does a good job.)Tangocommuterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14060601718946750364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-69499820236046769342012-07-23T16:13:12.003+01:002012-07-23T16:13:12.003+01:00Just in the interests of clarity.
Chris are you s...Just in the interests of clarity.<br /><br />Chris are you suggesting that beginners wishign to learn "Argentine Tango" find a "good dancer" and learn from them one-to-one until they are of sufficient standard that the other "good dancers" in the community will dance with them socially. And then learn by dancing socially with the good dancers, possibly augmenting it with further lessons from good dancers?<br /><br />And would you accept that, at least in London, the vast majority (say 90-95%) have absolutely no interest in going this route, and are quite happy learning something in classes which you don't consider to be Argentine Tango. <br /><br />And that as this rather large group of people are what currently make milongas financially viable, as long as they're not actually causing harm to anyone, there's nothing wrong with that, particularly if they're enjoying themselve?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-59571020762500131232012-07-23T06:39:54.818+01:002012-07-23T06:39:54.818+01:00Chris
Ok. I can accept that as your definition (n...Chris<br /><br />Ok. I can accept that as your definition (not necessarily mine) from now on.<br /><br />The problem that occurred was that you had switched between using both terms to describe the same people within this thread – thus suggesting no difference. <br /><br />e.g You described me as both a lesson goer and a class goer when I had only mentioned going to privates lessons in Berlin<br />Other quotes included:<br /><br />“At milongas from which beginners have been largely eradicated by lessons that turn them into leavers or sub-beginners, yes I rarely dance with beginners.”<br /><br />"Ah but if a better tango scene is wanted aren’t these [class leavers and sub-beginners] the dancers that should be targeted and shown an alternative and more successful way of learning to dance?"Random Tango Blokenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-80441056079136176102012-07-22T14:48:20.892+01:002012-07-22T14:48:20.892+01:00A class is a specific kind of lesson. Another kind...A class is a specific kind of lesson. Another kind is individual lesson. They are very different.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-24454988533927569392012-07-17T17:01:07.086+01:002012-07-17T17:01:07.086+01:00Chris
“I am letting you. Not that it seems to hel...Chris<br /><br />“I am letting you. Not that it seems to help...”<br /><br />Lol. ....No not really. I may be alone here but it seems to me that You do move the goal posts as you go along in your arguments in contradictory ways.<br /><br />example : I am unaware of any previous distinction that you made between” lessons” and “classes” in the comments on this thread so far. And yet now you pull me up on using the wrong term?Random Tango Blokenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-91482955868509616622012-07-13T18:23:58.357+01:002012-07-13T18:23:58.357+01:00"Ok let me get this straight."
I am let..."<i>Ok let me get this straight.</i>"<br /><br />I am letting you. Not that it seems to help...<br /><br />"<i>the beginners should avoid lessons.</i>"<br /><br />Classes.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-56963098300323908342012-07-13T17:39:35.467+01:002012-07-13T17:39:35.467+01:00Chris
Thanks for your reply
Ok let me get this st...Chris<br /><br />Thanks for your reply<br />Ok let me get this straight. <br /><br />Now you advocate a system where experienced dancers are supposed to nurture/develop the beginners and less experienced –and the beginners should avoid lessons. <br /><br />I go to a lot of the milongas / practicas that you go to with your partner and were on your recommended list for tango-uk. I very very rarely see you dance with other followers and never with beginners because a) they are not the milongas where you would find people you would want to dance with b) the beginners are already tainted by having taking lessons. At the milongas that you go to when I’m not there you dance extensively with beginners.<br /><br />erm..............Random Tango Blokenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-54907977473387349692012-07-12T13:15:21.753+01:002012-07-12T13:15:21.753+01:00Random Tango Bloke wrote:
"My own experience....Random Tango Bloke wrote:<br />"<i>My own experience... is dancers prefer good dancers – and they don’t really care how they got there.</i>"<br /><br />My own experience is that the typical classgoer has a significantly different idea of what constitutes good, having learned in an environment where good is defined more by a class instructors than by regular dancers. This gives classgoers an overall preference bias toward classgoers. That's natural. Just as those who learned more from regular dancers generally have a preference bias toward regular dancers.<br /><br />"<i>Well you were there too ... So I would have thought the obvious conclusion is that we share the same taste in milongas?</i><br /><br />Except, as you've stated, you don't go to milongas at which I often dance with beginners.<br /><br />"<i>I’m not sure why you are recommending milongas / tea dances where you would be unlikely to find anyone with whom you wanted to dance</i>"<br /><br />I'm not. As you already observed, I often go with a partner - as do many others who enjoy those milongas.<br /><br />"<i>Ah but if a better tango scene is wanted aren’t these [class leavers and sub-beginners] the dancers that should be targeted and shown an alternative and more successful way of learning to dance?</i>"<br /><br />I can see why a classgoer might think that, but I share the regular dancers' preference bias towards the kind of dance learning that does not cause such problems in the first place.<br /><br />In other words: if it ain't broke, don't break it.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-24219328383647041952012-07-11T14:41:35.892+01:002012-07-11T14:41:35.892+01:00Chris
Thanks for your reply.
“My experience of t...Chris<br /><br />Thanks for your reply.<br /><br />“My experience of the few thousand dancers I've known, on and off the floor.”<br /><br />Well I cannot argue with your experience / opinion – that’s your truth. But being highly subjective I would not call it hard evidence. My own experience from thousands of dancers ( dancing in Argentina/ Germany/ Holland/ Italy/ Belgium/ Spain ) is that dancers prefer good dancers – and they don’t really care how they got there. But again it is only my experience and opinion and maybe I only hear what I want to hear – I certainly wouldn’t claim it as hard evidence either.<br /><br />“That's a sample strongly biased by a lessongoer's choice of milongas.”<br /><br />Well you were there too. They were in fact on your list of recommended milongas and we both had travelled a considerable distance to get there. So I would have thought the obvious conclusion is that we share the same taste in milongas?<br /><br /> As I’m not sure why you are recommending milongas / tea dances where you would be unlikely to find anyone with whom you wanted to dance – forgive me but I’m going to take that with a pinch of salt. <br /><br />Oh and by the way I have also been to the Cambridge practicas.......<br /><br />“At milongas from which beginners have been largely eradicated by lessons that turn them into leavers or sub-beginners, yes I rarely dance with beginners.”<br /><br /><br />Ah but if a better tango scene is wanted aren’t these the dancers that should be targeted and shown an alternative and more successful way of learning to dance?Random Tango Blokenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-77167950038940563392012-07-11T03:18:52.947+01:002012-07-11T03:18:52.947+01:00Random Tango Bloke wrote:
" "lessongoers...Random Tango Bloke wrote:<br />"<i> "lessongoers have a relatively higher preference for lessongoers" ... what evidence do you have to support this?</i>"<br /><br />My experience of the few thousand dancers I've known, on and off the floor.<br /><br />"<i>By peer to peer learning I was referring to individuals learning from each other rather than directly from a teacher.</i>"<br /><br />Fine, but that's not the distinction I'm making. The distinction I'm making is between learning by dancing with someone who dances v. learning from the demonstration and instruction of someone who talks about it. You call the latter direct - I call it indirect. Direct dance learning is through dance itself, from a dancer him/herself.<br /><br />"<i>I have seen you at numerous milongas. You bring a partner and seem to very rarely dance with other followers. On the few occasions that I have seen you dance with other followers – they have certainly not been inexperienced dancers.</i>"<br /><br />That's a sample strongly biased by a lessongoer's choice of milongas. (No criticism intended.) At milongas where otherwise I'd be unlikely to find anyone with whom I wanted to dance, yes I go with a partner. At milongas from which beginners have been largely eradicated by lessons that turn them into leavers or sub-beginners, yes I rarely dance with beginners.<br /><br />Whereas, at any of our three Cambridge practicas you'd see every time I visit I dance with beginners - guys and girls. And at our class-free milongas. And at my favourite milongas across mainland Europe. I dance with beginners more than just about any non-beginner I know.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-11621796436542760272012-07-06T01:22:43.286+01:002012-07-06T01:22:43.286+01:00Chris
“Sure. My point was that whom one thinks/fe...Chris<br /><br />“Sure. My point was that whom one thinks/feels to be a good dancer is largely personal preference”<br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br />“and lessongoers have a relatively higher preference for lessongoers. This is not a criticism.”<br /><br />None taken. You do not know me or how I dance. Besides don’t worry – I’m here for an open discussion. <br /><br />However I do not know how to respond to that. Firstly what evidence do you have to support this? And secondly ....actually don’t worry – it works as a bold/ controversial statement but I am not sure there is enough relevance to the topic to merit examination.<br /><br /><br />“By peer-to-peer you mean beginners with beginners, intermediate with intermediate etc.??”<br /><br /><br />By peer to peer learning I was referring to individuals learning from each other rather than directly from a teacher. This could be with individuals at the same level or stronger helping weaker etc. Though I agree with you that experienced dancers working with less experienced dancers would be the favoured scenario.<br /><br />“What I am promoting is the traditional way proven ny the Argentines over the last 100 years - people who can't yet dance learn by dancing with people who can.”<br /><br /><br />Yes the Argentine model would seem to work/have worked very well for them. At the risk of repeating myself I just do not think it can work here.<br /><br />I was hoping to avoid what I am going to say next because I like a lot of what you say and the way you say it.I also think that there is a lot of truth in your assessment of some of the main players on the Londo scene. I do not wish to get personal or in a battle with you. However it is the best way to illustrate my point. <br /><br />The problem Chris is that whilst you are very vociferous on your view you do not actually PROMOTE it. I have seen you at numerous milongas. You bring a partner and seem to very rarely dance with other followers. On the few occasions that I have seen you dance with other followers – they have certainly not been inexperienced dancers.<br /><br />It is not a criticism – you are entitled to dance with whoever you want. But if you yourself are not willing to dance with the beginners – then who is supposed to do it?<br /><br /><br />And that I believe is the biggest flaw in your argumentRandom Tango Blokehttp://randomtangobloke.blogspot.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-72223793835061941802012-07-05T16:40:36.896+01:002012-07-05T16:40:36.896+01:00Random Tango Bloke wrote:
"As I already stat...Random Tango Bloke wrote:<br /><br />"<i>As I already stated - the only selection I made was to ask to ask those who I thought/felt were good dancers!</i>"<br /><br />Sure. My point was that whom one thinks/feels to be a good dancer is largely personal preference, and lessongoers have a relatively higher preference for lessongoers. This is not a criticism.<br /><br />"<i>I do not take privates in London – I would have regular ones in Berlin as I consider the teachers are better and unquestionably more reasonably priced.</i>"<br /><br />I do too.<br /><br />"<i>the bad dancers who nobody wants to touch - how are they supposed to improve?</i>"<br /><br />I have to say I see nothing to suggest "bad dancers who nobody wants to touch" are supposed to improve. What they're supposed to do is stay in classes where forced partnering ensures they'll get dances regardless.<br /><br />"<i>I agree with much on what you say about the standard/way/material of teaching in London. I just don’t think you are suggesting a viable alternative when you promote the idea of peer to peer learning </i>"<br /><br />By peer-to-peer you mean beginners with beginners, intermediate with intermediate etc.?? That's the standard UK class system and the opposite of what I'm promoting. What I am promoting is the traditional way proven ny the Argentines over the last 100 years - people who can't yet dance learn by dancing with people who can.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-85932350924052746562012-07-05T03:26:11.020+01:002012-07-05T03:26:11.020+01:00TC, there have been pre-milonga practicas at Ballh...TC, there have been pre-milonga practicas at Ballhaus Rixdorf, Haus der Sinne, Tango tanzen macht schoen, Mala Junta, Art 13, Max und Moritz, Villa Kreuzberg, TSV Gutsmuth, NOU, Walzerlinksgestrickt and perhaps more I don't know of. Claerchen's Ballhaus has also held what they call a practica but it looked to me more like a class.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-91449153368458123322012-07-02T14:36:33.281+01:002012-07-02T14:36:33.281+01:00Chris
“Since that's the selection of a (as yo...Chris<br /><br />“Since that's the selection of a (as you say) lesson lover, no real surprise, is it?”<br /><br />As I already stated - the only selection I made was to ask to ask those who I thought/felt were good dancers! ......I had made no assumption as to how they had learnt so therefore there could be no surprises. I was asking them for my own enlightenment and learning not to prove a point. The reality is that they spoke of getting lessons from teachers (Ismael ludman / Ines / Daniela etc).<br /><br />I suspect that you are right in saying that private lessons are more common there – although I do not really know how many people take them in London. As I already stated whilst I do not take privates in London – I would have regular ones in Berlin as I consider the teachers are better and unquestionably more reasonably priced.<br />----------------------------------<br />“In an open practica, you can learn by dancing from anyone you choose, paid or not. Whether you call that person a teacher matters very little. Whether they call themselves a teacher matters even less. What counts is whether they can really dance.”<br />I love practicas and I agree that it is the best environment to learn IF you can access the right people to work with. The problem is that not everyone can. Often experienced dancers will ” bring their own” to make it worthwhile for them to attend. Yes experienced male dancers will gravitate towards the young attractive female beginners but what about other groups such as male beginners and older unattractive followers? And don’t get me started on the bad dancers who nobody wants to touch- how are they supposed to improve?<br /><br />I agree with much on what you say about the standard/way/material of teaching in London. I just don’t think you are suggesting a viable alternative when you promote the idea of peer to peer learningRandom Tango Blokehttp://randomtangobloke.blogspot.co.uk/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-57282862930901966322012-06-30T17:58:02.734+01:002012-06-30T17:58:02.734+01:00Thanks for the link to the impressive link of Berl...Thanks for the link to the impressive link of Berlin practicas, Chris. But you were talking about pre-milonga practicas, and that's what I was asking about. Which are they?Tangocommuterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14060601718946750364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-47107083749397888502012-06-29T14:47:03.338+01:002012-06-29T14:47:03.338+01:00http://berlin.tango.info/practicas<a href="http://berlin.tango.info/practicas" rel="nofollow">http://berlin.tango.info/practicas</a>Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-35718099957597898742012-06-29T13:00:59.972+01:002012-06-29T13:00:59.972+01:00Chris, 'Many [Berlin milongas] have practicas....Chris, 'Many [Berlin milongas] have practicas.' <br /><br />You're suggesting the practicas are pre-milonga. If you don't mind, could you list them? Thanks.Tangocommuterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14060601718946750364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-77641392399199833012012-06-29T00:52:15.090+01:002012-06-29T00:52:15.090+01:00Anonymous wrote:
"Why on earth should someon...Anonymous wrote:<br /><br />"<i>Why on earth should someone born and raised in the south of england connect with someone in the same way as someone from Berlin, BsAs or wherever?</i>"<br /><br />Ineed. They can connect any different way they like, and can insist it's the way everyone else calls dancing Argentine tango. It's a free country! :)Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-23430131753542426702012-06-29T00:49:45.537+01:002012-06-29T00:49:45.537+01:00Random Tango Bloke wrote:
"When I asked good...Random Tango Bloke wrote: <br />"<i>When I asked good dancers in Berlin ... where they learned – they all told me about classes or teachers.</i>"<br /><br />Since that's the selection of a (as you say) lesson lover, no real surprise, is it?<br /><br />My recommendation of Berlin was more for dance lovers than lesson lovers.<br /><br />The Berlin dancers I most like that learned from teachers did so through dancing with them in one-to-one sessions. Such learning is much more common than in London.<br /><br />The best Berlin class-taught dancers I've found are those who did as few as were needed before graduating to practicas and/or milonga. Classes figure very little in the Berlin tango scene. E.g. whereas in London all milongas have one or two classes beforehand, no Berlin milonga I know has any. Many have practicas.<br /><br />In an open practica, you can learn by dancing from anyone you choose, paid or not. Whether you call that person a teacher matters very little. Whether they call themselves a teacher matters even less. What counts is whether they can really dance.<br /><br />"<i>in my experience many of the dancers that are often willing to offer their “help” to beginners are often not the type of dancers you want to learn from. They seem to be all too willing to spend time lecturing beginners because no one else wants to dance with them!</i>"<br /><br />Agreed. And the reason we have so many bad dancers lecturing beginners is that we have so many people spending hours in classes copying bad dancers lecturing beginners. <br /><br />Like begets like.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08546555586986008873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-42690557619755338952012-06-21T13:55:56.504+01:002012-06-21T13:55:56.504+01:00Time and again I see people ignore a simple thing ...Time and again I see people ignore a simple thing in these discussions. _People are different_<br /><br />The way that Bob and Mary feel comfortable in the embrace in no way has to be the same way that Saracen and Valeria do. <br /><br />London is awful, oh me, oh my. Teachers are conning their students. If only we lived in BsAs a hundred years ago....<br /><br />And yet somehow people all over the world go to milongas every day and have a good time. <br /><br />Why on earth should someone born and raised in the south of england connect with someone in the same way as someone from Berlin, BsAs or wherever?<br /><br />I remember being on a tube in London and an american remarking loudly to an Italian how weird it was that no-one talks on the tubes in London. <br /><br />Let people be comfortable in what they're doing. And don't force them to conform to whatever _your_ idea of that is. If two people want to dance with the same feeling, whether that's discussing the weather or making love, then good luck to them.<br /><br />Yes, there needs to be a baseline of "playing nice". And yes there are students who are looking for something specific who get mislead by teachers, or it simply isn't available where they are. But from what I've seen they'll tend to just keep looking till they find it and good luck to them too!<br /><br />Near as I can tell, the fundamental strength of the milongueros is they found whatever their way to connect with people in the embrace and through tango was and got very good at it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6115345479350954256.post-33520970462883367482012-06-21T00:30:54.888+01:002012-06-21T00:30:54.888+01:00Thanks, Cinderella! But when I mentioned the embra...Thanks, Cinderella! But when I mentioned the embrace that 'resembles making love' I meant a visual resemblance. Whatever it feels like, I think the tango embrace is a formal structure that needs to be maintained carefully!Tangocommuterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14060601718946750364noreply@blogger.com